Being a scientist, not just a job

Aida Bakri: 0:00

Welcome to ESWI Airborne. In this series featuring our early career scientist community, we will talk about life as a scientist. This series is made possible thanks to the kind support of CSL Seqirus and Sanofi.

Clare Taylor: 0:33

Welcome to ESWI Airborne, the podcast of the European Scientific Working Group on Influenza, otherwise known as ESWI. I'm your host, Clare Taylor, and today I'm talking with the rising stars of ESWI's early career scientist community. This is a nascent community, which was launched at the ESWI conference in Valencia in September 23. So here in the studio with us today to tell us more about the joys and the sorrows of establishing a scientific career. I'm delighted to welcome our guests. First up, Debby Van Riel, Associate Professor at the Department of Viro-Science at the Erasmus Medical Centre in Rotterdam. Hi, Debby.

Debby van Riel: 1:16

Hi Clare.

And next up we have Carolien van de Sandt, Senior Research Fellow at the Department of Microbiology and Immunology at the Peter Doherty Institute in the University of Melbourne. Thanks for joining us, Carolien. What time is it there with you?

Carolien van de Sandt: 1:31

Thank you, it's 12 at night, at the moment 12.15 actually, so it's actually quite late.

You must be on the hot chocolate then, or the wine.

Yeah a nice cup of tea still, but we'll have a wine afterwards.

Very hardworking scientists and finally, last but not least, we have Jenna Guthmiller, Assistant Professor in the Department of Immunology and Microbiology at the University of Colorado's Anschutz Medical Campus. Jenna, you are very welcome to ESWI Airborne. What time is it there with you?

Jenna Guthmiller : 2:03

Yeah, hi, it's 6.20 in the morning.

Okay, so we've got all the time zones spanned here, folks. Scientists are hardworking people, that's for sure. So tell us, what is it like working as a scientist? Is it how you'd imagined it would be?

Yeah, I mean, I guess that's a pretty broad question. But briefly, I don't think anybody knows especially if you're first gen, never really been around science before what a scientist really entails, and it's often not depicted in movies and TV shows accurately. Oftentimes it's quite meticulous work that you have to do and it's often unrewarding. But you know, at the end of the day, when everything comes together, it's a very satisfying career path.

Yeah, I think I completely agree with that. You don't really know what you expect. I think I started because I was really curious and I had the opportunity to ask some or to try to answer some questions that I thought were really interesting. And I think it's really important to realize that once you start your scientific career, it will change in time what your responsibilities are, also what you have to do, but also what you expect from it. So I think in time you'll notice that you can have an impact on different levels in academia or in the society, that you can have a impact on different levels in academia or in the society that you're in yeah.

For me it was the PhD was more what I expected of being a scientist, a lab coat and being in the lab and actually doing experiments, but I found out along the way that it's way more than that. You also have to be good presenter, you have to write a lot of things, you have to be basically your own manager, getting your funding, funding for your team and building that team. But you also travel quite a lot.

I've been to so many places that I probably wouldn't have been, if I have been in any other job and Carolien staying with you on that, I mean, do you feel that it is vocational for you? Do you feel like this is a calling?

I think a calling might go a bit far, but it's definitely not just a job and I think it needs to be more than a job to be a good scientist, because it asks a lot, it's often long hours, it can be quite frustrating if your experiment don't work, so you need to have some sort of passion to keep going and, yeah, to stay on course basically.

How about you, Debby?

Yeah, I would completely agree. You need to love the job right. It can be tough sometimes, but you have to enjoy all the small successes you have in order to get your publications and to get your grants and everything and to teach and sit in committees. So there's quite a lot expected from you. So I think you will not manage if you don't really enjoy it.

I completely agree with that, and I think just one thing to add is that, you know, for me, again, it's not just a job, but I also consider, you know, my scientific career somewhat of a hobby as well, because in order to really get into the field and be passionate about what I'm studying, you have to take that time to read papers and, to, you know, really go that extra mile to understand something. And so for me, it's like you know, some people will read a book. At the end of the day, I might be reading scientific papers because, you know, that's what interests me and what drives me forward.

I think that's something we've heard from other ESWI members. Indeed, this is not a nine to five kind of business for a lot of them. So, and like their PhD thesis, this is a big kind of watershed, isn't it? You know, and you're in different stages with this Debby. For you, this was back in 2010, that you defended your thesis, Carolien, and Jenna more recently in 2016 and 2017. But, as you look back from where you are now, what advice would you give to your younger self? Like starting out on your PhD?

I think the first one is don't be too harsh on yourself, but on the other hand, also don't be too humble and too modest. Just take the spotlight and make it happen right. Make yourself more visible. It felt extremely uncomfortable for me when I was doing my PhD, but I think just do it and enjoy it.

And what was most uncomfortable? What did you find most challenging?

Yeah, I think just to make yourself visible, and I didn't get any training or specific help in that. So I did a female career development three years after my PhD and that was quite intense and I realized that there were so many lessons that I learned then that I would have loved to learn earlier. Like also, what is your position within a group of people? How can you really make a difference? You know some meetings you're in there and you're just part of the group, but some meetings you really want to get something out of it. So prepare well for those specific meetings and so many other things. So I think it would have been good if I would have learned that earlier.

Carolien, how about you? What would you say to your younger self?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think my first two years of my PhD were quite harsh because nothing worked. I didn't get any papers out and then by the second year you feel the stress because at some point you need a book with papers to actually get your PhD. Nothing worked, I didn't get any papers out, and then by the second year you feel the stress because at some point you need a book with papers to actually get your PhD. But yeah, those two years were actually quite valuable because nothing worked.

I learned to troubleshoot quite well and I also worked at a really great department at the time where they did a lot of different types of work and experiences, and it was not my research, but I went out to people. Actually, Debby and I were on the same department, so I remember that Debby had all these cool dissections of animals that they were doing and I didn't know nothing about. So I asked her can I join you for a day? Just watch you do that and see how you dissect this animal and what it looks like from the inside and what you do. And yeah, of course, good watch.

So, and I think that that might be good advice for any of the PhD students. Just do it. Ask people if you can watch them, if you can maybe lend them a hand, if you're handy in the lab. Just get the opportunities there. It might not result in a paper, but it's a cool experience to have and you have those chances as a PhD. You might not feel like it because time is limited, but you have less time after your PhD to do that actually I feel.

What would you say?

Yeah, I think it's always easy to look back and make some profound statements, but certainly I think the biggest thing for me was just not stressing about the future as much as I nearly did, you know, trying to what's working as hard as feasibly possible to, you know, get the perfect postdoc and to get as many papers out as possible and, to, you know, apply for every grant I could and you know just to to be able to get a faculty position.

And I I kind of wish that I would have maybe enjoyed the ride a little bit more and not have been so stressed about, you know, getting to where I am now. But certainly I am where I am now, perhaps because of that. So it's really difficult to say. But I think don't forget to enjoy the experience, enjoy the people that you're around, because all of it is transient in nature. You're only going to be at these institutions for a certain amount of time and you may make lifelong friendships out of those and really take advantage of who you have around you and the experiences that you're having.

Wise words indeed. So, Debby and Carolien, you were both at the same department, and another thing that you have in common is that you're both recipients of ESWI's Claude Hanoun Prize for Best Body of Work for Young Scientists. Now, Debby, you received this award in 2017. Did it have any effect on your career?

Well, for sure it had an effect on me because it felt for me that my work was really recognized and it also increased my visibility. So I think after my PhD I chose a topic, what I thought was really understudied, even though my supervisors didn't agree they wanted me to work on a different topic. So it felt like a huge recognition that I made the right decision years before to do what I really thought that I wanted to do and, in addition, the visibility helps right. You connect to more people, you have more interactions and indeed, as Jenna said earlier, you know all those people that you meet. It might not immediately start as a collaboration, but just the fact that you know them and you have a broad network will really help you throughout your career, because it's really easy to send someone an email to ask for advice or maybe help or a possible collaboration if you already know each other. So it's really good and I think the ESWI award really helped to broaden the network.

That's great to hear, and also that it validated your choices right. It took a while, but that's you know. That must have been very heartening indeed. Now, Carolien, this was a recent honor for you, so has the world changed for you since September? Or tell me how does it feel.

Yes, it was definitely a huge honor to win this prize. I actually remember Debbie getting the prize in 2017 when I was still a PhD student or or maybe just a postdoc then starting, and I always thought this prize was such a nice honor for young scientists and something to work towards as an inspiration, and I've always been doing what I love to do and same as Debbie. It's such a great recognition of your work and your contribution to the field and an encouragement that you're on the right path, because, as a scientist, you doubt yourself very. Am I working on the right topic? Am I making a big impact or a difference in the world? Is my research of any value to anybody? And then this prize comes and that recognizes that and that gives such an encouragement to to continue on that path and that all the hard work that you put into it, the long hours are worth it.

And these dates that you mentioned, I mean, is this something I imagine that many younger scientists have in common? I mean, are they? Are they typical challenges that you support people with?

I think so. There's many other people I've heard that are in the same level as I am at the moment and have the same kind of doubts. It's always wondering where you can spend your time. Only one way: Either you're in the lab, or you're writing a paper, or you're writing a grant, and you have to make that decision every day. What, at that point, is important and am I doing the right thing? And time will tell um, yeah, it's, it's. It's hard, and I think a young, a lot of young scientists struggle with that how to divide the time and where to put their efforts. What, what's most important? Um, for the way forward, and I don't think there's one way or one way to do it?

No, and I think it's a pyramid right. We all know that there are a lot of PhD students, but only very few will become a professor. So you know that somewhere in the pyramid people the way you want to your ambitions increase. You know that people will drop out, either voluntarily or because they don't make it, and that's challenging, especially for a young scientist, when you're still at the base of the pyramid. You know that some will not make it, which does not have to be a problem. You have to work hard for it to really make it. So if you didn't get that recognition, that's really important.

It's really a mountain to climb, isn't it? I mean, Debby, how, what did you find was most useful to you at that time? Was it peer support or your own work ethic, or can like? What do you think helped get you through it?

Well, I think I was lucky, or I created the luck, I don't know, but I got some grants in the beginning of my career. So that helped you realize that after your PhD you want to become a postdoc and more independent. You need to get some money. It's very clear cut. Without money there's not much to do, yeah. So that first funding is really important.

So this is interesting, Carolien and Jenna, maybe about in the way you found your niche, because both of you work on virus specific immunity, but you study different aspects, right as I understand it. So, Jenna, maybe you can tell us about how did you find your way to your niche?

Yeah, so I actually initially did my PhD on B cells and antibody responses against plasmodium, so malaria.

So I only entered into the flu field as a postdoc, and one observation that I made as a PhD student was that, you know, antibody responses are just really not ideal during malaria. And I was really frustrated because all of the cells that I was studying I made the observation that none of them were actually specific to the parasite, it was just the parasite was hijacking the immune response and inducing antibodies against you name it. And so I got so frustrated by this observation that when I said when I was looking for postdocs, I said if I want to understand what a B cell is doing, I need to know exactly where it's binding. And that really led me to where I ended up doing my postdoc, which was really focused on understanding where antibodies bind and how this is important for influenza immunity. And so because of this kind of passion for just if I'm going to study a B cell, I need to know where it binds, has really been the thing that's driven me forward in my career and allowed me to kind of identify this niche that I'm currently in.

Wow, curiosity is really some driver in this, isn't it? I would say?

Stubbornness, just like a mad observation that everything I was looking at was just frowning.

Can I interrupt there?

Because I think it's a very good example that a lot of young scientists nowadays really think like, OK, I want to start doing this, and they have to make a decision already at their master thesis level which direction they want to go in. But that's nonsense. You can switch right. You have a lifelong time of learning, so there's no way that you already have to make decisions on what your topic and your career will be about when you're still young. You can switch after your PhD, but also later on in life. That's okay.

Yeah, and certainly you know I bring this example of you know I started in the malaria field and moved into influenza. But the knowledge that I gained from malaria applies so much to influenza and there's tons of parallels, despite these being two very different pathogens. And I think when you do have these sort of diverse trainings that you know maybe you did your PhD on this topic and your postdoc on a different topic there's going to be parallels between the two and it's going to strengthen you in your future to have kind of this more diverse background as opposed to perhaps and not to say that there's anything wrong with this but if you do your PhD and your postdoc on the same thing, you're maybe not seeing these outside worldviews that could really provide that niche for you.

I also completely agree. For me, the question that has been driven me is a bit older. I think maybe when I was 10 or something, I already was asking people like, why does the same virus cause different disease outcomes in different people? And nobody could really give me the answer, but also nobody in my direct environment like from family or friends from my parents. Nobody worked in research, so nobody knew what it was. So it was really finding my own way there, finding first of all your bachelor, your master that you want to do, but also internships that you do, but what Jenna and Debby also say. I did them in really diverse fields and that really helped broaden your your, your few of of things as well. And this question, even though I've worked on different topics and on different aspects of it, has always been the base of my research, um, and driving me to understand how the immune system works and functions.

How has that drive informed your research and advanced knowledge in the field, Carolien?

Yeah, that is a very good question. So during my PhD I really studied how the influenza virus interacts with the immune system. So on one side, can the immune system recognize different influenza viruses? The CD8 T cells are really good at that, where your antibodies only recognize one virus strain. Cd8 T cells can actually be cross-reactive between different influenza viruses and they are also long-lived, which makes a great quality for vaccines. But my question was still, if we all have these CDAT cells, why elderly individuals still are not protected that well and get these severe diseases. So that was really what drove me to go do my postdoc somewhere else and really try and answer this question, to see why elderly individuals fail to cope with influenza viruses as well as, for example, children, who cope exceptionally well both with seasonal and pandemic viruses.

And what can you tell us about it? What can you tell us about the answers to the question?

So one of the papers that we recently published actually looked at CD8 T-cells against influenza across the whole human lifespan and what we found is that newborns and children they develop these very optimal T-cells that are maintained in adults and we thought they would go exhausted or asleep when you get older.

That's what the consensus was in the field. So we thought easy experiment, we show this. And that is the answer. Turns out they don't go exhausted, they actually disappear and they get replaced with these suboptimal T cells. So a lot of fields, for example in cancer immunology, they're trying to reawaken these exhausted cells and they thought well, that can then be applied to other vaccines, for example for influenza viruses. But if the cells disappear and they get replaced by these optimal cells, those techniques and new vaccination ways may not work for influenza vaccines. So we may need to think of different strategies, of how we want to vaccinate and protect these elderly individuals, for example, vaccinating earlier so that you boost these cells when they're still around so that they are maintained into an old age, or find ways to make them more functional in elderly individuals.

That is really exciting and interesting. And, Jenna, how have you felt your way Like? How has your research had impact?

Yeah. So I would say that the overall goal of my research is to understand, you know, how humans generate immunity and specifically antibodies and humoral immunity against influenza viruses, whether it's through vaccination or infection, and really the major observations that we have identified is that, you know. One observation, for example, is that when you get infected versus when you get vaccinated, those responses are crazy different, with infection really inducing tons of antibodies against sort of internal proteins of the virus that you know aren't necessarily as exposed to us and don't mediate protection, whereas when we get vaccinated we tend to boost antibody responses against more protective parts of the viruses, which it's that time of year, at least in the Northern hemisphere, to go get your flu shot. So get your flu shot, if you haven't already, to try to boost these better immune responses. But certainly we know that these antibodies are not perfect. So how can new vaccines induce better responses?

And so I've been really fortunate to be involved with some some some studies, specifically a phase one clinical trial of the first potential universal flu vaccine in humans, which was a really exciting time. It was the first year of my postdoc, so I was just, you know, like starry eyed, like this is amazing. I could be making a huge impact and really what we've observed from this is that we identified antibodies against a new epitope that were broadly neutralizing as a result of that vaccine trial. As well as is that when when you design a vaccine in such a way that you can induce really broadly protective antibody responses, and that there may be ways forward to be getting more universal flu vaccines that provide this broad protection and provide both protection against drifted seasonal influenza viruses but also pandemic viruses.

So, Jenna, is that the big question for you and what you want to address? How do humans generate immunity? Like is that?

Yeah, I mean, it's the big question and there's a billion questions underneath of it that we're. The list gets longer before we can answer any of them. But certainly I think as scientists, that's just, that's just par for the course. We're always generating more questions than we can ever feasibly answer and that's why that's just par for the course. We're always generating more questions than we can ever feasibly answer. And that's why I think you know, these sort of conversations, going to to conferences and networking is so critical, because, hey, I think this is a really interesting question, but I just can't answer this and somebody may be like, well, yeah, that is a really interesting question, we're kind of doing something along those lines and to really mediate those conversations is so critical for advancing the field forward.

That is great, Carolien. What is the mother of all questions for you?

I think the most important thing is that most of the current vaccines that we have try to boost a healthy immune system, but that also means that they don't work for a lot of people, like elderly, who have different immune cells, but also people who that they don't work for a lot of people, like elderly, who have different immune cells, but also people who are immunocompromised. So I think one of the big questions that we need to address is are there ways to restore immunity, to get it back to a younger face, or restore it or compensate for the loss that people have, so that we can make effective vaccines that also work in individuals that may miss a component or have a less functional component of their immune system?

Debby, what's the question that keeps you awake at night and up early in the morning and so on?

So I think one of the big questions is that we really do not know how virus infections affect all different processes and organ systems on the long term. I think what we now see with long COVID, it's very clear People have lasting effects and lasting complications. But to be fair, we already know for decades that influenza, virus infections and most likely also coronavirus infection and probably way more, have an effect on your cardiovascular system, on your central nervous system, on your immune system. It would be really cool and also very challenging, if we really get more insight in the lasting effect of these infections, which is also really difficult to study. Right, if the pathogen is there and there is an effect, then the culprit is there next to what's happening. But to study that on the long term it's more challenging. But I think we really need to try and figure it out. We also realize more and more how important the microbiome is for the overall health. I think we also need to realize what the effect of the virome is on your overall health.

And I suppose this is an open question, like any of you can jump in on this but as you look at these kind of these huge questions and do you feel you have the resources that you need to investigate, you know, what do you wish was there was in place for you?

Money for sure yeah.

I mean certainly money. It certainly makes uh our work easier when we are well supported uh.

But also, we really need to have good teamwork. I think these huge questions we need to address with different expertises, we have to set aside our own ego, is it's not led by individual egos, but that you really try to get these answers to these important questions with a theme. I think that's the most important challenge that we have. There's so much expertise, you cannot do everything, so we have to we have to, you know, get together and make it work together.

This is true. There has to be more interdisciplinary collaboration really to answer the most pressing questions, and some of this conversation reminds me that a good question is one that's difficult to answer, and the best question is one to which there is no answer at all. But then I'm an Irish woman, so I probably would say that.

So, it's such a pleasure talking with you. I have to ask you for some last words and some takeaways here. So if you had someone young woman, young man, whoever considering a career in science, Jenna, you start yourself. What advice would you give them?

Yeah, I would tell them to seek out opportunities to explore that. So, whether it's washing dishes in a lab just to see the inner being of what a lab is and what people in labs do, just to gain that initial experience and see if it's something that you enjoy, I still enjoy going back into the lab and filling tip boxes because to me it's just I don't know, there's just some serotonin that's released in my brain when I do it and it's just like the most relaxing thing.

Some people do knitting and some people fill the tip boxes.

Yeah, and so you know, just seeing if this is something that you enjoy, because it can be quite, you know, tedious and what you're, what you're doing, and if you don't love doing that maybe isn't the career path for you. But really just getting your feet wet, getting those initial experiences, that's what you need to do.

Yeah, I totally agree with Jenna. Pick a topic that you're absolutely passionate about, because that will always be your main driving factor If things get hard. If things get tough, science will never be easy. It will always have a hard moment. One of my earliest supervisors said once you feel like you're going uphill, you just don't realize you're falling. Yet I've realized that that is sometimes true. But sometimes you also don't feel that you're going up the hill, that you're on the right track. If that happens and people say that take it, be proud of yourself, give yourself a chip on the shoulder that you're doing something. Well, when your paper is published, celebrate it, things like that.

I think that's a good one. Celebrate all your successes, enjoy it and connect to as many people as you can.

All right, there you go. That's the last word from Debby. The power of networks. Thanks so much to all of you for sharing your experience and insights with us today. You're great promoters for a career in science, I would say, just by the very kind of freshness and curiosity that you've shared with us. So thanks a lot. That was really interesting.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. That was really interesting.

Thank you, thank you, thank you no thanks.

Thank you, and thanks to you listeners, for tuning in to ESWI Airborne. Please do share this podcast episode with anyone you might know considering a career as a scientist. And good news, there's more on the way. This is one episode in a three-part series all about life as a scientist. Certainly, it's full of surprises, so stay tuned to ESWI Airborne and get the latest information directly from the people who know the most about viruses, immunisation and more. So until next time, dear listeners, stay safe.

Aida Bakri: 30:47

ESWI Airborne is brought to you by ESWI, the European Scientific Working Group on Influenza and Other Acute Respiratory Viruses. These episodes would not be possible without the team's efforts and we would like to extend special thanks to our ESWI Secretariat, our technical and IT teams, our arts team and our host, Clare Taylor. The podcasts are recorded virtually and we thank our guests for their participation in this inspiring series. Talks are adapted to a global audience and are intended to be educational. For any specific medical questions you may have, these should be addressed to your local general practitioner. Many thanks to our sponsoring partners and thank you for listening.

Being a scientist, not just a job

ESWI Airborne: Life as a scientist

More info?

ESWI Airborne: Life as a scientist

Community info

Early Career Scientists Network